quote 2 from david wolpe

p. 25: "throughout my various illnesses, i prayed. my prayer was not answered because i lived; my prayer was answered because i felt better able to cope with my sickness. each time i go for my regular tests, the CT or PET scans or an MRI, each time i am moved into the metal tube that will give an image of sickness or health, i pray. i do not pray because i believe God will give me a clear scan. i pray because i am not alone, and from gratitude that having been near death i am still in life. i pray not for magic but for closeness, not for miracles but for love."

i really like his thoughts here. the assurance of not being alone is a great gift, maybe even the ultimate goal of prayer. at the same time, i think of the text that describes God as knowing how to give good gifts to those who ask. that sounds concrete and empirical to me. i resist, maybe too much, the comments by authors such as wolpe that seem to 'explain away' the tangible when it comes to answering prayer.

quote 1 from David Wolpe, Why Faith Matters

p. 140 - "you cannot measure the effect of prayer the way you measure the effect of sunlight. nor is it like a slot machine, where sometimes you hit the jackpot and other times the investment is simply wasted. God may be supplicated but not coerced. the human task is not to tote up results, but to engage in this mysterious and beautiful discipline of the soul."

my reactions: the slot machine metaphor is an effective one, but i don't like how it is used. most people's experience with prayer is closer to winstar casino than it is to a secluded grotto, and that reaction should not be demeaned. as for coercion, abraham and gideon come to mind as OT figures who negotiated with God. finally, i agree with the mystery and beauty of prayer, but what does one do with ask/seek/knock?

those are my thoughts. what about yours?

a question rick warren wants to ask God

He also wants to know how prayer works - why God answers some prayers right away and not others. "The truth is, that the vast majority of our prayers, we don't see those kinds of miracles."

from http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctpolitics/2008/12/rick_warrens_da.html

Does this spark any thoughts, either on the quote or the one who made it?

quote 1, Listening for God, by Renita Weems

before the preface in Weems book, there is this quote from Madeleine L'Engle, The Irrational Season: "i have often been told that when one first turns to god, one is greeted with brilliant yes answers to prayers. for a long time that was true for me. but then, when he has you hooked, he starts to say no. this has been, indeed, my experience. but it has been more than a no answer lately; after all, no is an answer. it is the silence, the withdrawal, which is so devastating. the world is difficult enough with god; without him it is a hideous joke." (italics mine)

here are my observations. a) i have never been given the brilliant yes answers. b) 'no' is indeed an answer, and i have not received any of those either, brilliant or otherwise. c) the withdrawal implies a time of clear answers; again, not my experience. d) the italicized portion definately captures how i feel about the subject. but it does not fully express my theology. the silence is devastating for me, but does not imply god is gone or nonexistent. it simply means he is silent.

any thoughts out there?

my thoughts on the prayer and suffering sermon

well crafted, well done. i enjoyed it. i am way onboard with your thoughts on where physical suffering fits into God's way of doing things. i agree that God is far more concerned with our spiritual well-being. i, too, believe that the only way to real spiritual growth is through pain. again, beeson's second law comes into play here.

still, i see a gap in the reasoning. the text from II Corinthians is instructive in many ways, one of my favorites. but, it includes an element that seems to be overlooked. the way i read it, God answered paul; not in a vague, open-channel-ly, could be God or maybe not, but in words that bounced off paul's eardrum and made its way to his brain and ultimately, his heart.

'my grace is sufficient for you' - i totally agree with that fact. should i use that verse to cancel out all the others that say God will answer prayer? or, does that verse imply that God's silence is equal to 'my grace is sufficient for you'?

i can handle a 'no' answer; it may be painful, but i can do it. as a teenager, i could ask for the car keys to go on a date. my dad could say yes or no. to me, it is totally invalid, inappropriate, and inconsistent to simply not respond (or to respond in such an obtuse way that i cannot figure it out). if the answer from God is no to a prayer request of mine, why must it be so hard (read: impossible) to get it?

does cognitive reception of answered prayers depend on me?

if connecting with God's answers to prayer requires a certain level of cognitive skills on my part, there is no hope for me. that assumes i know what those skills are (i don't), that i know how to develop and maintain them (i don't), that i know how much skill is enough (i don't). the success i might experience in receiving discernable answers to prayer cannot be dependent on my skill, my spiritual depth, my level of faith, my meeting of the minimum criteria necessary (you must be at least this tall to ride Space Mountain). i have believed and taught for years that if you go looking for God, at the very least he will come looking for you. scripture indicates that at that moment of encounter, it will be unequivocally obvious that it is either God himself or his official representative. no pre-qualified cognitive abilities required. the notion that God answers prayer - i am no closer to understanding it than i was 18 months ago.

does God 'nudge' people - part 2

your earlier comment makes sense. i, too, keep my announcements about God's activity to myself. yet, i still cannot say with certainty what comes from God and what does not. i absolutely do not trust myself when i dig around in my soul for messages from God. i have no way to determine what is from God and what is my own wishful thinking. i can say that if i find myself saying that God wants me to have a new car, that indeed is NOT coming from God. i believe God could care less about that, other than being displeased that i would be so selfish. but, i still question where to draw the line when taking requests to God. my life history indicates that i am pretty crappy at boot-strapping my way through life. my past is littered with poor choices that just did not work out like i thought they would. they were choices i presented to God in the hope that i would receive some divine direction. and who is to say that the divine direction actually was 'you are going to make a lot of crappy decisions, good luck.' to me, career choices, resolving marriage problems, help with parenting are sufficiently big enough issues to take to God and expect some reply. what do i do with that?

Does God 'nudge' people?

the 'nudge' idea may correspond with the influence of the Holy Spirit living in a person. i believe that happens, but i do not know how to distinguish between 'what i think' and 'whatever the HS injects into my stream of consciousness'. have you ever been nudged, or otherwise influenced by the HS?

should i be afraid to converse with God?

it should be noted that when people in the OT encountered either God or one of his messengers in conversation, they assumed their death was imminent. that sounds unpleasant. i don't know how to resolve the tension between a 'terrifying God' and an 'approachable God'. what do you think about that?